220.127.116.11 But he doesn't
need to say it
Mr. J., you say: "Does Jesus say, 'I am God'? No."
I am glad we agree. "...because that would have been
misunderstood. Jesus is not the Father (as it would have
been thought), Jesus is the Son." What?, are you
claiming that Jesus is incapable when telling his disciples
"worship the Father" to add the words "...and the Son"? Are
you claiming that the people he is talking to are incapable
of comprehending that one is the father and the other is the
son? Would you have us believe that his twelve apostles were
so dense that they could not comprehend the difference
between a "father" and a "son"? Are there no words in his
language to say "I am not God but His son, worship
both of us"? When you claim that Jesus (pbuh)
died on the cross, do you misunderstand this to mean that
God the "Father" is the one who died on the cross? When you
claim that Jesus was "begotten" by God, do you misunderstand
this to mean that Jesus begat the Father? Are Jesus' twelve
hand-picked apostles truly in you estimation so backward and
dense? This is not how Muslims regard them.
With regard to the miracles of Jesus being proof of his
Godhead please read my comments about other prophets and
their miracles (Section 2.2.3).
What you appear to be trying to say is that the fact that
Jesus never told anyone to worship him nor claimed to be God
but left it up to them to surmise by themselves is proof
that he wanted them to worship him? God must command us to
worship him, and Jesus must command us to worship God, but
Jesus (pbuh) receives worship "without censure"
without asking for it? Why then is the same not true for God
Himself? Why did God Himself not simply remain quiet (like
Jesus) and expect us to "gather" and "observe" that He
wishes us to worship Him. Why does God Himself not receive
"without censure" worship until He asks for it?
With regard to the opening verses of John, they have
already been dealt with in detail.
Jesus (pbuh) never in his lifetime told anyone to worship
him. It was others who did that. Quite the contrary,
whenever Jesus (pbuh) spoke of worship, he always attributed
it to God and never himself: "Thou shalt worship the Lord
thy God, and him only shalt thou serve" Luke 4:8.
Notice the words: "Him ONLY." Jesus did not say "US
only," or "Him and I only." How could he possibly make it
more clear than that? What abstract meaning are we now going
to concoct for this verse to show that what Jesus "really"
meant was "worship BOTH of us"?
The problem with many apologists is that they "interpret"
the words "he" and "him" to mean "we" and "us" when it suits
them, and to mean "he" and "him" only when it suits them. In
cases such as Luke 4:8, they claim that "him" really
means "us." But in cases where God "begets" Jesus, or where
God "sacrifices" Jesus, "him" and "he" is God alone
and does not mean "us" and "we." Notice the trend?
But there is more:
- "Jesus saith unto her, ... worship the
Father" John 4:2.
- "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the
true worshippers shall worship the Father
in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to
worship HIM" John 4:23. Notice: "worship the FATHER,"
not "worship the Father AND THE SON." Also notice:
"worship HIM" not "worship US" or "worship ME."
- "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord,
shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth
the will of my Father which is in heaven."
- "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy
God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with
all thy mind." Matthew 22:37.
Strangely enough, even though Jesus is regarded as the
"incarnation" of God, and wholly equal to God in every
respect, and all three are "one" God, still, no one has ever
gone on and attempted to explain if this is so why Jesus
would then need to pray, let alone to his own self:
- "And he (Jesus) went a little further, and fell on
his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be
possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as
I will but as thou [wilt]." Matthew
- "He (Jesus) went away again the second time, and
prayed (to another side of his 'triune' self?), saying, O
my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except
I drink it, thy will be done." Matthew 26:42
- "And he (Jesus) left them, and went away again,
and prayed (to whom? To himself?) the third time, saying
the same words." Matthew 26:44
- "And in the morning, rising up a great while
before day, he (Jesus) went out, and departed into a
solitary place, and there prayed." Mark 1:35
- "And he (Jesus) went forward a little, and fell on
the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the
hour might pass from him." Mark 14:35
- "And again he (Jesus) went away, and prayed, and
spake the same words." Mark 14:39
- "And he (Jesus) withdrew himself into the
wilderness, and prayed." Luke 5:16
- "And he (Jesus) was withdrawn from them about a
stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed," Luke
If Jesus (pbuh) "is" God, and if both are different names
for one "triune" God, and if all three "persons" are
"co-equal, co-eternal, and consubstantial," then is Jesus
praying to himself? Is he praying to another side of his own
personality? Is he praying to his own essence? Why? Why does
the "incarnation" of God need to pray, beseech, sweat, and
plead with his own essence? If I have both a father and a
number of sons, then can my "fatherly" nature plead with my
"sonly" nature to save it from danger? Why? For what
"Many will say to me (Jesus) in that day, Lord, Lord,
have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have
cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart
from me, ye that work iniquity."